QUOTE: The continued elevation of Global Guerrillas to state status

"The murderous attack this morning was not a terrorist act, it was an act of war..." Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Wednesday 12 July, 2006 in response to the killing and abduction of Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon (from the WP).

The Israeli response to both this incident and the one in Gaza has been to shut down the local systems (air travel, electricity, roadways, etc.). This is similar to an airpower effects based operation (EBO) designed to incapacitate a state, but the effects generated in this situation are likely only to strengthen Israel's non-state enemies (as if not to be outdone by the ability of the US to manufacture global guerrillas). On the other hand, one interesting strategy undertaken by the EBO attack on Gaza is that it could be a bid to return Gaza to codependency on Israeli electricity generation (although, how this limits the growth of non-state enemies is beyond me). Here's the details from a well researched article by Rachelle Kliger from The Media Line:

Israeli aircraft took out six transformers of the Palestine Electric Company (PEC) in a June 28 attack, in a bid to secure the release of captured soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, and to cripple the activities of Palestinian cells launching missiles onto Israeli communities from Gaza. In contrast to Palestinians living in the West Bank, who receive nearly all their electricity from Israel, Gaza has tried to wean itself off Israeli power by building its own power station.

In normal times, the PEC, which was established in 1999 by a group of Palestinian investors, provides nearly 55 percent of the electricity consumed in Gaza. The remaining power is provided by the Israel Electric Company (IEC). The power shortage caused by Israel’s air strike has brought life in Gaza to a standstill. With less than half the required power, electricity in Gaza is now being manually allocated in rotation to different neighborhoods, for a few hours at a time.

Frequent power cuts are affecting water supplies, as the water pumps run on electricity; sewage treatment is being damaged, threatening to cause environmental and health problems; hospitals are concerned their generators will break down, which will have life-threatening consequences for some of their patients. Not only individuals are bearing the brunt of the situation. Businesses are cutting down opening hours, relocating their investments to Egypt, or closing down altogether, said Hanan Taha, executive manager of Paltrade’s Gaza office.

Which leads to this (which is yet another additional lesson to non-states actors on how to take-down states):

The IEC is aware of the shortage in Gaza, and maintains it is doing all it can to help, providing an extra 7-8 megawatts of electricity. “As much as it can, the Israel Electric Company has always adopted the policy of ‘leave electricity out the conflict’” said Dedi Golan, a spokesman for the IEC. Golan stressed that the IEC was not involved in any way with the damage to the transformers, but the company is doing what it can to alleviate the hardships of Gaza’s power-deprived civilians. Even though these lines are saturated, Golan said there is an operational instruction to transfer as much power as possible, and to coordinate the transferal with both sides so that the lines don’t collapse from overload.

The IEC is making arrangements for emergency supply to Gaza, but Golan said it requires permits. “Once these permits are obtained, implementation will take about three months,” he said. Meanwhile, experts estimate it might take between 10 and 12 months to rebuild the station. The cost of the damage is about $15 million.

Comments

[Duncan Kinder]

John, the timing of Hizbollah's action is interesting.

It coincides with the United States' attempt to bring sanctions against Iran at the United Nations. ( Of course, as is well known, it also coincides with the current Israeli-Hamas struggle. )

Do you have any information to confirm or deny the thesis that the current Lebanon confrontation amounts to pushback by Iran in response to its quarrel with the United States?

[georgb]

why incapacipate libanon? the government there has no control over hezbollah. heck, if their constitution wouldn't require that there is a certain mix of ethnicities in government, but would instead allow a majority vote, hezbollah would be the government. maybe giving them full responsibility would have made them more sensible. right now they are a guerrilla group outside of anybodies control.

[sammy small]

With all the intelligence infrastructure placed throughout the ME, I don't understand why Israel doesn't just mimic the guerrilla tactics doubled over. Responding with purely conventional force just plays into the same old game yielding the same old results.

If Iran can do it (via Hezbollah & Hamas, Israel should be able to pull it off as well. Start with Tehran and work out from there.

[georgb]

sammy small,

i fear the israeli intelligence network is overrated. in libanon both iran and syria can draw from huge popular support for hezbollah. same with hamas in occupied palastine. these groups are often the only employers in those areas, the survival of many depends on them.
israeli secret service can hardly compete with that. they have in the past managed to blow up a hamas leader here and there, but that's about it. israel is very isolated.
at least that is my understanding of the situation.

Sammy:

The Israelis backed the Maronites in the Lebanese civil war in a manner you suggest. It just led to the massacres of Palestians in the refugee camps before the Maronites were defeated and the Israelis were eventually pushed out of Lebanon.

Crusader kingdoms don't last very long...

[Cavolonero]

The big problem with " fight the guerillas with guerillas " is that essentially equals " Dial 'D' for Death Sqauds " and no state wants to go there. But don't sweat it because this whole thing is going to go to the next level in a couple of weeks at most.

[Adam]

Sammy,

The situation in the Middle East is moving blindingly fast so an intelligence led (in any meaning)solution is pretty much out of the question for the current crisis.

The problem with Israel running intelligence operations in the region (as opposed to within commuting distance from their homes) is that Israel is out of local friends. Even Turkey is slowly stepping away.

At its heart the problem is the 35 year military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. This has drained any public support for Israel in the wider region. As Mao would have noted guerillas need to be able to swim in a sea of people - and its pretty hard to swim when everyone is looking really carefully at you. Its quite possible that Israel can run operations through other people, mainly the US, or US backed terrorist groups like MKO, but that relies on unreliable people doing what Israel wants.

That said, the US will remain compliant. Bush has put so much credibility into the anti-terrorist thing that he cannot say boo to the Olmert at this stage.

So if its going to be difficult for Israel to run operations, at the same time Israel sees no value in intelligence operations, as opposed to military ones. Currently Israel is trying to spread the new 2006 war (that it thinks it can win on two fronts) into Northern Lebanon, from South Lebanon and Gaza. Four months ago Olmert was elected on the grounds that he could secure Israels borders unilaterally. This policy now appears to mean going into the border areas and smashing everything so that new Israeli settlers can replace the former occupants. Lebensraum is an unpopular word, sadly its also probably accurate for the current Israeli policy.

To the North, the recent withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon has given an opening to Israel to invade Lebanon again. Again the bad news for the Israelis is that the locals are onto quite a lot of Israeli tricks. Israeli special operations in South Lebanon came to halt when a string of ambushes occured in the mid 1990s.

Equally the fact remains that Israels two most immediate enemies (Hamas and Hizbollah) are elected members of their national govenments. At the very least it means that they have demovratic legitimacy and so can actually claim to be making a reasonable stand for their nations. Israel certainly has invaded both areas, and has not signed a peace treaty to date with either. Whilst such things are somewhat passe (like the Geneva Conventions) it was the failure to release prisoners held after the last wars - particularly the women and kids - that kicked the latest situation off. It also means that the West should be standing up for these new democracies that are being bombed... but that'd mean we believed in democracy and we simply don't.

And the really bad news? Israel's front-man in the Middle East, the US, is stuck in Iraq. Historically, Iraqi Sunnis largely support the Palestinians, whilst the Shi'ite Iraqi government, including the Mahdi Army are close friends with Hizbollah (at one stage it was to be called Hizbollah in Iraq). Israel's new wars of expansion will see the US taking casualties from both sides for its failure to control its former Israeli client.

[dan]

Sammy:

The Israelis did actually set up their own guerrillas in Lebanon in the late 1980's - the SLA. It's members and their families had to be evacuated to Israel when the IDF withdrew in 2000, which should tip you to the fact that the strategy was spectacularly unsuccessful.

[Adam]

Dan,

Its far more amusing than that. Hamas were originally Israeli backed as an alternative to the PLO.

Most Americans are unaware of the fact that Israel, towards the end of the 1980s, actively helped in the establishment of the Hamas organization, hoping to create an Islamic opposition to the more moderate, Marxist, and secular PLO.

From 1988 The PLO supported the existance of Israel within its 1967 borders, something the Israelis could never accept for political reasons, whilst Hamas simply wanted to kill all Israelis, which Israel could use to gain funding from the US (roughly $1k a year per person which isn't too shabby). Politics makes very strange bedfellows.

As a result the Israelis, terrified of the PLO's demand for a state, hoped that by creating a fundamentalist opposition to it, they could break its political monopoly in the occupied territories. The Israeli support for Hamas included money, weapons and training. At one stage Hamas leaders delighted in showing Western journalists that they had Israeli leaders' home telephone numbers which they had been given to discuss policy.

Whoops Apocalypse.

[Duncan Kinder]

Putin has had some success in Chechyna in aligning with the Sufis against the Wahhabis.

Israel, if it is going to enjoy any long term prospects, simply must find some elements of Arab and Muslim society with which it can at least live.

The Sufis are its best bet.

[sammy small]

I understand that Israel's efforts in Lebanon before with the militias failed, and that their intelligence is not all that encompassing. But that's not really what I'm talking about.

What they need to do is mimic the current fashion, outsource with plausabile deniability. Iran denies being the sugar daddy of Hezbollah and Syria claims no control either. There needs to be an outsourceable pit bull to play the same game with those states that have perfected the game.

Israel will do what they normally do to combat the threats and actions of Hamas and Hezbollah. But, there will simply appear an entity to play a different game without being tied directly to Israel. Think Los Pepes in the capital cities of the major threat states. I know its wishful thinking, but I believe that Israel must get more creative. If you believe Ahmadinejad, time is running out.

[daCascadian]

sammy small >"...time is running out."

Yes, people around the world ARE figuring out the warfare game of the String Pullers & their time IS growing shorter & shorter

Prepare to say "bye bye !" to the likes of The Carlyle Group (and all the others like it)

"...you cannot save your face and your ass at the same time..." - vachon@shadrach.net

[daCascadian]

Yet another example of the spread of Open Source Warfare :

"Hezbollah's remote-controlled attack on a warship Friday marked a first in the militant group's use of "air power" against its powerful enemy, the technologically advanced Israeli military....a Hezbollah drone loaded with explosives slammed into an Israeli navy vessel off Lebanon, causing severe damage and leaving it burning as it turned and cruised homeward, Israeli officials reported. The Arab television channel al-Jazeera said four sailors were missing after the attack..."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Warship_Drone.html

"You don't prevent anything by war except peace." - Harry S. Truman

[Marcello]

It would be interesting to know more about the vessel involved.If it was a patrol boat like a Super Dvora, no problem.
A Saar 5 class corvette, well then somebody would have a lot of explanations to do.

[Adam]

Marcello,

Don't know the ship type. I do know its being towed back to base so we'll get photos later today and that there are supposed to be eighty troops or crew on board. The SAAR 5 Corvettes are meant to have a crew of 60. Sounds ominously like it was a corvette that got hit as the smaller boats only have 30 aboard.

We do know that the ship was 16km off shore at the time it was hit, and that Israel is now saying that Hezbollah has weapons with a 40km range.

More importantly its not impossible that this was a drone, not a missile. We know that Hizbollah can use drones for recon missions, so there's a benchmark. It also means that Hizbollah are fielding attempts at state of the art Western weaponry without bothering with bureaucratic things like miitary organisations or Air Forces. And thats 4th Generation warfare in pure form.

Either way its a staggering technical achievement for Hizbollah and certainly is going to make some Western naval people start wondering about the effectiveness of current anti-missile/drone defences.

More information is here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=738611&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/sentinel/sent001013_1_n.shtml

Whats going to happen in the next few days is going to be fascinating. This was an attempt by the Israelis at a quick six-day war style offensive to destroy one small organisation living right next door. At this stage we have to say Israel has failed; even the Hizbollah radio and TV stations are still on the air, which is simply dismal. If the Israelis arent' careful the US is going to ask for a refund on all that training and kit because they clearly aren't up to using it. Olmert is going to be getting desperate so he'll probably do something last ditch, effective, and impressively nasty to try and keep political power in Israel. At this stage, as soon as the shooting stops, Olmerts government falls.

The next week or so is going to be interesting.

[daCascadian]

Marcello >"...A Saar 5 class corvette, well then somebody would have a lot of explanations to do."

Nonsense since these things happen during the "fog of war" & no one is immune (nor is either side "Supermen")

I have no idea how "true" this is but here it is :

"...On July 14, 2006, the INS Hanit conducting shelling and patrols off Beyrouth was attacked by an Hezbollah UAV, apparently using missiles and/or a kamikaze-style attack. The ship suffered damage near the helicopter landing pad and was on fire for several hours. Up to four sailors were killed, and the ship was towed back to Haifa, apparently unfit for further action..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_5_class_missile_boat

"If your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough," - Robert Capa

[Adam]

Sammy,

There is a perfect option available as the US currently has in custody an entire anti-Iranian terrorist group known as the MKO (aka MEK). They are the people who have been telling the US that Iran is going for nuclear weapons. On the other hand they are against the West too, and are Islamic fundamentalists, and were backed by Sadaam for years (not that the West cares; terrorists are only bad if they kill people we like). Anyway, that would be an option a nice solid Iranian terrorist organisation with support from US. Sounds perfect, right?

Problem is of course that MKO is part of the organisation that took over the US embassy in 1979. And that's the rub - its simply not going to play in Peoria.

Overall the problem is that everyone thats a player has a history in the Middle East. Creating a new player is possible, but takes a long time. Israel hasn't got the time right now. Plus being linked to Israel is any way, shape, or form is a death sentence for an organisation so it'd have to be really quiet. And with oil heading towards $80 just on the fighting around Israel throwing more oil on the fire by supporting terrorism in Iran just isn't going to be on anyone's agenda.

[Marcello]

"...On July 14, 2006, the INS Hanit conducting shelling and patrols off Beyrouth was attacked by an Hezbollah UAV, apparently using missiles and/or a kamikaze-style attack. The ship suffered damage near the helicopter landing pad and was on fire for several hours. Up to four sailors were killed, and the ship was towed back to Haifa, apparently unfit for further action..."

As said ship does not carry a gun capable of being used against (the 76mm is "fitted for but without") land targets at the very least it was doing something else.

"Nonsense since these things happen during the "fog of war" & no one is immune (nor is either side "Supermen")"

INS Hanit is the most recent and powerful vessel in the israeli navy.While it is not comparable to an aegis fitted ship it still has a decent air defense suite, in the frigate range.The Bharak missile has been built taking in consideration the UAV threat and the Phalanx should make a short work of a slow flying target; the electronics are modern as well.
On the sea the fog of war takes different forms than on the land.An UAV slamming into such a ship would indicate that something was very wrong.The only explanation I can think of is that the air defense was shut down to minimize the risk to helicopter operations.
If it was indeed an UAV rather than a rocket artillery barrage (against wich defense would be far more difficult) or some such then I expect that heads will and should roll.

[Marcello]

Update: now it is claimed to have been a
C-802 SSM, not a drone.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275923,00.html

[Marcello]

The situation is still murky.From what can be pieced together from the media it would appear that the Hizbullah launched a three missiles salvo.One hit and sunk an egyptian merchant, one missed and one hit the corvette.
The missiles according to the media are supposed to be C-802, a chinese jet powered subsonic sea skimmer.It is still a fairly good weapon even if not state of the art anymore (superceded by the C-602); the iranians have a modest inventory of them.The damage inflicted is not consistent with such a weapon however. Either the SAP warhead malfunctioned or, as I suspect, it was actually a lighter missile like the Kosar (iranian FL-8 clone).
According to the media reports, as I suspected, the israelis had basically "turned off" the air defence to minimized friendly fire risks under the assumption that the locals had nothing to throw at them.
If the above is correct I think that some people should end their careers manning a litter barge, but that's just me.

[MDE]

Hezbollah is the train that Iran maintains, conducts and rides on to further its international policies and project its power -- kinetic and non-kinetic. The IRGC, Iranian Special Forces and Intelligence Services all use this entity as an enabler. Hezbollah is an extension and tool of these agencies. This is a fact beyond dispute.
Back to the original topic of the thread: let us not attribute statehood status to non-state actors. Please, don't even go there. There are fundamental aspects which we either ignore or dilute and therefore detract from our own standards of definitions and acceptance. The primary of which is the idea of legitimacy. Legitimacy is the one thing that a state or other entity can not give itself -- it must be earned and awarded by the community. Even the most arab of Arab states are shy of HAMAS's ill-logic as they make an attmept at legitimacy as a state player. Iran does only so they can poke Israel in the eye. The entire Palestinian culture is merely a tool for everyone else to hack at Israel over. Ask an Arab what the etymology of the extremely derogatory term "philistizee" means. (hint: colloquially = "from my ass" but it used to mean Palestinian)
I digress. Legitimacy is the one key aspect that gives a state statehood as opposed to merely a hijacked state (Lebanon). Hezbollah (and HAMAS) may have elected seats under their belt, but are they a credible political force? Only by virtue of the fear their armed might can hold over a population or in a Robin Hood sort of way for a disparate and desparate population of Muslim Arabs living in crap. Even if a non-state actor has all the equivalent resources that are normally reserved for a recognized state (transportation infrastructure, governmental protections, banking, domestic judicial authority and cultural sway over popular thought, etc.) it can never have legitimacy unless we allow it to. That priviledge allows them to have a voice on the world stage that can cause other governments to pay attention. As yet they do not have that. The day we allow them to have it is the day Israel dies and the day we set the conditions for losing the war on terror.

[MDE]

Marcello -- I totally agree with your last comment. That would be inexcusable.

[Adam]

No. Lebanese Hizbollah has political legitimacy.

Hizbollah defeated the Israelis in battle - being the first Arabic force to do so, liberated their nation from invasion in an epic 18 year long war, and are part of the elected government. They have roughly a million supporters and represent roughly 45% of the Lebanese population. They also have representatives that aren't Shi'ites, including at least one Catholic Christian. If that combination doesn't give them legitimacy then its going to be hard to see what they have to do to become legitimate. And if the answer is "renounce violence" thats just plain hippie-silly. There is a massive difference between accepting Israel and accepting the post-1967 borders. Israel? Sure. 1968? No.

Of course your point that Hizbollah has an armed group is well made. So do the Israeli settlers but that doesn't make the Israeli government illegitimate, merely thuggish. Asking Hizbollah to give up their troops at a time when its clear that Israel is quite prepared to invade once more would be foolish in the extreme as Hizbollah are far more effective than the Lebanese military. The Israelis are desperate to try and break the log jam of the interminable guerilla war and a nice solid invasion of Lebanon, or Syria (or anywhere but here) is seen as part of that. Plus they get to use all the nice shiny toys that they've been given over the years which are completely useless in a guerilla war.

At this stage the nice shiny Merkheva tank made it roughly 50 feet into Lebanon before hitting a mine (12th July). This represents the furthest advance of the Israelis into Lebanon during this operation as they halted everything right after that happened. In addition Hizbollah are shelling Haifa. Haifa, Israels operational naval port, was considered to be inviolate to anything short of massive air-raids. Not any more. At the same time Hizbollah is also hitting the Israel air-force operations centre at Miron. Another impressive strike in and of itself.

There are two schools of thought right now: optimists are saying Hizbollah are smoking everything in the arms locker before they lose them. Realists are saying that this was planned months before (Hizbollah put photorecon drones over Israel two months ago) so its running on a plan which Hizbollah has the initiative on. What the plan is we don't know but currently the Israeli military are running around like headless chickens. Their latest target list included petrol stations as "major terrorist targets"...

To show how hellishly fast things are running right now. The Israeli vessel was used for embedded journalists to take pictures of their heroic shelling of Lebanon. By the time the video ran the vessel was ablaze. The original Israeli propaganda film is now on Hizbollahs TV channel.

I suppose that the Israelis do have a point that Hezbollah have shelled parts of Israel in the past (to an extent... Since 2000 most of the shelling has been spent anti-aircract fire that missed Israeli planes). Its not mentioned to the American public but the area that is being hit is the Shebaa Farms territory which is the last bit of Lebanon that Hezbollah want to liberate. That area does not belong to Israel and the Israelis could end the problem by obeying international law and relinquishing land captured in 1967. However that would upset the settlers and politically it wouldn't work within Israel.

At this stage the Israelis are looking for US intervention (probably from the 2k US Marines off of Lebanon) in either Lebanon or Iran to take the heat off their troops by screaming about an Iranian made missile as proof of Iran's involvement. This is of course drivel. Almost all of the weapons the Israelis use are made in the US, and provided directly at the US taxpayers expense. The US has already agreed to send $210m worth of fuel to Israel in support,
thats on top of the billions of dollars of weapons, aircraft and ships sent each year of course. Against that we have... 1 missile: http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/US-plans-A280m-jet-fuel-sale-to-Israel/2006/07/15/1152637904368.html

But the Israelis are feeling desperate right now. Current betting is on an Israeli attack to take the pressure off the military and the politicians and let them claim that they are achieving something. Its 1982 all over again and I suppose we'd better warn the people of Grenada.

[Z]

Hizbullah has scored some impressive hits and may score some more. Israel's demand on the implementation of UNR 1559 leads nowhere as the "Interantiona Community" isn't going to disarm Hizb for them, and its not like they haven't ever tried it before themselves.

For the moment, it seems the Israeli leadership has been trying to win on the cheap using just airpower. They don't want to be sucked into a guerilla war in south Lebanon again.

But the rules of the game have indeed changed and Israel enjoys total support fron the U.S. It can inflict far more civilian casualties than in the past without fear of condemnation.

More to the point, Many on the extreme right have coveted south lebanon up to the Litani river. Its entirely possible they will invade and instead of fighting a guerilla war, merely ethinicly cleanse south lebanon ("evacuate for their own safety") and claim it for themselves. Bush isn't about to tell them no.

[Murray]

There is a strong assumption in this article and most of the comments that Israel's interests and America's interests are the same.

This is simply not true. Israel has been a terrible ally for the United States. It is has sucked the US into it's own terrible maelstrom of violence and counter violence that is arguably of it’s own making and has clearly been a terrible disaster for both Israel and the Arabs.

I think a lot of the blame for this disaster is due to the emotional, belief driven, value based thinking going on in the military and executive branches right now.

If you describe your opponents as evil terrorists then you have painted yourself into an intellectual corner. You can’t talk to terrorists, you can’t understand terrorists, you can’t negotiate with terrorists all you can do is kill them.

This thinking justifies the most terrible atrocities imaginable.

When you shell a family on a Gaza beach it's because they are suspected terrorists. When you blow up houses in the West Bank with women and children inside it is because they are potential Terrorist sniper points. When you abandon the Geneva Convention and hold men, women and children in prison for many years it is because they are terrorist suspects and sympathisers. When you blow up a power station, and government building in Gaza it is because you are destroying the infrastructure of terror.

Even worse, from a purely pragmatic point of view, this thinking closes down nearly all of your strategic options for developing peace and security with the Arab world.

The US needs to disengage from Israels war with the Arab community. Most of all US strategists need to disengage from Israeli language and thinking about the world.

What we need is a return to a rational, pragmatic, results oriented way of thinking about the world. This will dramatically increase our strategic options for peace and security.

[MDE]

Adam,
You don't really believe that Israel could do anything peaceful to end the southern Lebanon problems, do you? Who lives in and controls the entire Bekaa valley (by this I mean all the way down to the Shebaa farms)? Who uses the infrastructure throughout Lebanon for strategic logistical and combat support? I'll give you a hint -- it is a safe haven/sanctuary for a well-known terrorist group supported directly and indirectly by Iran.
Unilateralism fails every single time. Hasn't Gaza re-taught us that?
As for the legitimacy of Hezbollah, manipulation,incorporation or co-opting of figures outside their culture/religion does not increase their legitimacy. It does aid their credibility in the local or regional politics, but so does their manipulation of Hugo Chavez, the Medillin cartels, and the Ciudad del Este/tri-border region in the Americas. Does that mean they are more legitimate? Heck no, just really good at getting what they want: access and placement in communities they would not have been able to achieve otherwise to solidify their base (Lebanon) and extend their strategic reach (South America) against their perceived threats (you and me).

[andy]

Adam
Some excellent points.
Hezbollah has popular support, a sophisticated military and intelligence machine and has a prediliction for attacking military rather than civilian targets.
To the dispassionate observer they have a huge amount more moral capital and legitimacy than an invading foreign force such as Israel.

The recent kidnappings were simply the latest in a series of events in a low intensity conflict between Hezbollah and Israel. These include numerous assasinations of hizbollah (and palestinian) officials, the odd killing of a lebanese civilian who got too near the border and regular violation of lebanese airspace. The idea that the kidnappings came out of the blue and were "totally unprovoKed" is a bit wide of the mark.

[tim302]

MDE,

I think you are confusing legitimacy for likeability. One may not like Chavez, or Hezbollah yet still recognize that people in their area of control may view them as legitimate.

I don't "like" Hezbollah but considering that its slate of candidates made it in to the Lebanese government, there is a strong argument that a significant portion of the Lebanese people view them as legitimate.

[Marcello]

Was the pre 1941 soviet government which occupied the baltic republics,invaded Finland and used state terrorism but which had the "transportation infrastructure, governmental protections, banking, domestic judicial authority and cultural sway over popular thought, etc" a legitimate government?
Legitimacy isn't the same as niceness.

[John Robb]

Lots of different uses of legitimacy. By and between states in a legal sense. Between a people and the state in a moral/legal sense. And between a subgroup and its constituents in a primary loyalty/moral sense.